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Kublai Khan The Emperor Of The Seas

Jack Weatherford returns to the pod which marks a pretty sentimental moment for me (links are at the bottom of this email, before the transcript snippet).

Jack’s first appearance was #19 of the podcast. To this day, it’s my favourite podcast I’ve ever recorded. These are links to the first appearance.

Jack Weatherford #19 on Spotify

Jack Weatherford #19 on Apple

Jack Weatherford #19 on Youtube

But four years ago, when I had just started this podcast, I had written to Jack telling how I was listening to the final chapters of his book while walking across sand dunes in Merghouza, (a desolate slice of the Sahara in south west Morocco). The chapter was making the case for how the plagues viral spread was downstream of the Mongols connectivity of the modern world.

I wrote that I was keen to interview him for this podcast that I had just started. 

There were lots of rejection for a while in the first few years and I had no expectations he would even get back to me. But to my surprise he did, and it was an emphatic yes. 

We corresponded a bit over email, recorded a 4 hour discussion, of which 3 where published And it was as much a dedication to Mongolia as it was Genghis Khan and the Mongols. 

And I’ve waited in the years since to see him appear on Rogan, Fridman, Tim Ferriss or even a Dan Carlin addendum, since these are all blokes who have openly praised and spoken about Jack’s work many times. 

But so far, nothing, although it looks like one of them may correct this, which Jack may or may not give away at the end.

But onto this episode today. Jack has just published his final instalment on the Mongols, his fourth book on the topic.

It’s called Emperor Of The Seas and it’s about Genghis’s grandson, Kublai Khan, who expanded the Mongol territory beyond the dominion his grandfather conquered 50 years before him. Kublai folded into the Khan empire the fertile agricultural lands of south China, repurposed that fleet and the expertise along with and expanded the Khan empire beyond the oceans. Mongols sitting on horseback, atop goat skins, riding wooden ships. 

Jack Weatherford #190 Of The Curious Worldview Podcast on Spotify

Jack Weatherford #190 Of The Curious Worldview Podcast on Apple

Jack Weatherford #190 Of The Curious Worldview Podcast on Youtube

Emperor Of The Seas - Jack Weatherford

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Here is a transcript of the opening exchange from the conversation…

Ryan
You were so generous last time Jack. I felt like almost guilty towards the end of it. You know, this poor guy is just letting me barrage him with questions.

Jack Weatherford
No, but it's a mutual, I mean, we get to talking and you're listening, you're letting me rattle on. So it's not your fault. I'm, I take advantage of the opportunity, Ryan.

Ryan
It was, it was, I was re-listening to our interview on the plane yesterday because you know, that was episode 19 of this show, Jack. We're almost at 200 now. So you had come into my life at a...

So you had come to my life and I felt like this deep sense of I do not deserve to have such a, you know, magnificent author to give me so much time. And I was feeling guilty beyond the hour mark thinking, come on, this guy's got better things to do than talk to me. But it was amazing because listening back to it, you know, it was actually so much on Mongolia and this incredible new chapter that you just forged for yourself after 50.

the Berlin Wall falls, you fly over to the former Soviet block and then, you know, this is like an entire new life that you've been able to carve out post 50, which I just think is so cool and, and, and unique.

Jack Weatherford

Well, I don't think about, tomorrow I turn 78. So I'm ready for a new life, you know. God.

Ryan
Is there another twist on the horizon for you, Jack?

Jack Weatherford
You know, this is my last book on Mongolia. And I've been living in Cambodia for a while. And you know, I always feel an obligation to the people who take me in, you know, as a refugee or whatever. And I would really, I've been working for a few years on this thing in my head mostly, but also now I'm writing out. Cambodia needs a good history, not just the killing fields and all.

And so I thought I've chosen kind of the first Buddhist king of Cambodia, unknown to the world, no biography outside of Cambodia. But he's a very interesting person. And I think he has a lot of lessons for the modern world. And I would love to see a book do well in the world that doesn't have to do with genocide. That's about all we know about Cambodia's genocide and it was horrible, horrific beyond words for four years. But it's a great civilization, a great country, and they deserve something good. And I think they're their Buddhist king because he created a universal health care system for the Khmer Empire. Free hospitals, free medication, trained doctors. He built 102 hospitals. I mean, it was something unheard of.

in the world and it was about the same time as Chinggis Khan. for me it's an era I know.

I was gonna say I came to it actually by way of the first Mongol ambassador. That's why I came to Cambodia following him and what he did. He came here and he stayed a year, or there to Cambodia, and he stayed one year in the Angkor Empire. That got me started on it. Then I thought, wow, there's something, there's interesting story here.

Ryan
Because there was a big and thriving civilization before the 1200s, which would be the timeline that this first Buddhist king that you've just described. Have historians really uncovered the great ancient history of Cambodia in that region?

……. continue the conversation with the podcast here.