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The Journalist Who Got Access To Renaissance Technologies

Greg Zuckerman on Spotify (This Episode On The Pod)

Greg Zuckerman on Apple (This Episode On The Pod)

Forgive the long hiatus everyone! This is the longest period I’ve gone without publishing an episode since the podcast emerged in the late embers of 2020. The pods been top of mind constantly. But I moved country (Im’ back in Australia) and therefore between that and my job have been overwhelmed with things to do… but thrilled to say the bi-monthly (or more) cadence is back.

And I couldn’t be more thrilled than to start the year off with none other than, Gregory Zuckerman.

Greg is one of the Wall Street Journal GOATS and as well authored plenty of wonderful books. He pulls back many of the hidden curtains of wall st. The big egos, the big enigmatic personalities, and naturally as well, the big brilliance behind these masters of the universe types. None for emblematic than Jim Simon’s, the central character of todays podcast.

I wrote to Greg late last year about his book, The Man Who Solved The Market. Which although is a story about Jim Simons, is more a wonderful story about a group of academics who created the closest thing to a money printing machine that humanity has ever sidled up along side. 

Theres a podcast called, Acquired, which did a fantastic episode of RenTech (if you want more), the boys over there also relied heavily on Greg’s work to put the episode together. 

And so…  with all that out of the way, here is Gregory Zuckerman…

Greg Zuckerman on Spotify (This Episode On The Pod)

Greg Zuckerman on Apple (This Episode On The Pod)

Or a link to Greg’s book here.

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Here is a transcript of the opening exchange from the conversation…

Ryan
There was a lot of pushback to having the book written at all. And I listened to you say in an interview recently how you'd since lost your sources at Rentech since 2021. So how did Jim and RenTech and the key players take it for after being published?

Greg
So some were fine with the book. I met Bob, I'm sorry, Peter Brown, who's the current CEO at an event. And I went up to him afterwards and he kind of turned pale and just sort of nervous and awkward. And it was weird interaction. So he didn't seem to like it. But Jim was fine with the book afterwards. At first, I knew he had a couple of issues with it, but then he seemed to get over them. So I've seen him. I saw him at a few events. He passed away, sadly earlier this year. by the end we had a good relationship and he seemed fine with the book so that was good.

Ryan
What were the reasons that they didn't really like that it was published?

Greg
Well, part of it is just their inherent secrecy, their inherent need or what they feel is a need for secrecy. That's just part of who they are, part and parcel of their nature. Because they've got what they think is a really successful money-making system and they don't want any hint of it getting out any details whatsoever. And their big whole thing is, you know, why? They don't raise money. They have these outside funds, but it's not a real big of the firm that they're already wealthy, they want to keep getting even wealthier, why do they want to be written about even if there's a that something gets out. So they don't like to be talking to other people. There's not inherently extrovert people, they don't like the attention, they don't go on CBC and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, the last thing I wanted was a book about them.

Ryan
They're lifelong NDAs to join the firm. How much of that was a hurdle for you to get around just to find sources at all?

Greg
It was awful. I still have nightmares thinking about writing that book. It was really difficult. listen, it's chronological in nature, the book, so I started off...

talking to people about the early days and getting a lot of really good stuff and I was... that gave me encouragement, made me optimistic I could actually write this book but for a long time I wouldn't even cash the advance I got because I wanted the ability to give it back. Then slowly because even when I was getting really good stuff about the early days and even in the middle period of Renaissance existence I was like why would anyone buy this book if I can't tell you what's going on today and I can't... and why would someone

who works there today talk to me. I mean there's no upside, there's only downside. You could lose your job at the most successful hedge fund in history. So that gave me nightmares. Yeah, you're bringing back a difficult period.

Ryan
Well, just to make it even worse, how much do you lament the fact that people were disappointed that you didn't get these key secrets to the algorithm and exactly how they're doing it? Or are you just comfy in the, finish it at the first part.

Greg
So it's funny, the reactions were largely positive to the book. It's done nicely. People have reached out and reviews are good, etc. But yeah, there's a segment of the readership that's like, Greg, I want the formula. You didn't give me the formula. You didn't let me make millions or even billions. How do I write a book about how the man who solved the market without you telling me what the formula is, how he did it. Part of it I do regret, and I was going to do this for a paperback, but we just haven't done a paperback yet. It's in the book. All the secrets are in the book. There are a series of things. There are good 20 or so of them.

that make them unique as a firm, that they do better than everybody else, have their advantages, etc. I just don't lay it all out for people. You have to kind of pick them up here and there along the way. And I do regret that I should have kind of had an appendix where here Simon Secrets kind of thing. When he passed away, I did do a story for the journal which distilled it into a few of them. I, yeah, I've heard from like, I heard secondhand Steve Cohen,

SAC or quite 72 fund managers like what why this book didn't give me the form I want the formula but most senior people Get there's not to be for and the point is also even if there was a formula It's it's a valid today, but it won't be tomorrow. So what's the point of even having it in there? So instead I focus on their approach and how They built the firm and what they do differently and how they hire and the leverage and all things which I think are a series of advantages of

……. continue the conversation with the podcast here.